There is a proposal for F-Droid to adopt an interim AI policy, along the lines of Debian's pro-AI policy.
I am not in favour of this.
In particular, I don't want to see genAI code in either F-Droid's own software, or in apps in F-Droid's repository:
gitlab.com/fdroid/admin/-/work…
Mine is, of course, just one voice. But I will continue to push for human-written FOSS apps, for human users.
(Yes, I am an F-Droid board member. Yes, I'm a volunteer, like everyone else. Yes, others seem to have different views. I do what I can.)
Interim Policy on Use of Generative AI (#699) · Issues · F-Droid / admin · GitLab
I propose we adopt this new Debian Policy as an interim policy while we figure out our own policy. This proposal is meant to encourage discussion in our...GitLab
Death by Lambda hat dies geteilt.
Tim Panton
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •OpenJDK Interim Policy on Generative AI
openjdk.orgTobias Ernst
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • •mögen das
Neil Brown, Bogdan Buduroiu, Akash Mondal und hackbyte #antifa #friendica 13HB1 mögen das.
Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •@tobifant
My view is that, if the developers used genAI to write them, those apps should not be in F-Droid's own repository.
I appreciate that you (and others) might find them useful but, for me, usefulness of the output of genAI is not a determining test.
(Others may disagree; this is just my view.)
Tobias Ernst
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • •As to your point, a repository that has only human written code is certainly a quality argument.
On the other hand, there is a large gray zone where humans are still in control, design the architecture, write code themselves and and review the code in detail, but use GenAI for some coding assistance. I have no problem with that as long as the developers understand the code. But you could maybe just sort them into a different repo?
Of course I see how we do not want "slop apps" where AI did the design and the developer does not even understand the code in the repo.
hackbyte #antifa #friendica 13HB1 mag das.
João Cachada
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •@tobifant My read is that you are still framing things in terms of usefulness; where for many the usefulness of the output is not a determining factor, like @neil said. Put another way, you could have LLM code that is provably better (whatever that means) than the human equivalent and still not want to interact with it (on climate, stolen training data, vendor lock-in, or some other arguments).
"Is it useful" is not enough of a bar for many.
nflux back in exile
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Ozzelot
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •Generative models, as an idea, are indeed not that evil. It's just the nonconsensual use of human works for training, environmental effects, and destruction of books that are evil.
Oh, oops, it needs all of those to actually exist? Bit evil then, I reckon.
@neil
Tobias Ernst
Als Antwort auf Ozzelot • •@Ozzelot @Neil Brown Any technology can be used responsibly and irresponsibly, and humankind has a track record of always starting out with the irresponsible one before finally setting for responsible uses, unfortunately.
I use local models, they take 150 Watts for inference, that's two conventional light bulbs. I reckon a lot of power was used to train them, but that's a one time effort. I consider this responsible use.
Book destruction - some tech bros been caught doing it. Of course that's evil but you can also scan books non-destructively.
Non-consensual use? Oh well, if you publish a book, you consent to anybody reading it.
Bottomline - for coding *assistance*, a small Qwen is all you need to get the job done father. Qwen already exists and you can run in with moderate hardware.
It will fail at just building an app by one click (but that's exactly the kind of apps we do not want on F-Droid or anywhere else), but it can help you get the job done faster while coding and still understanding what it is that you code.
See what I mean?
Ozzelot
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •I do consent to everybody reading it, yes. But these things aren't "everybody".
@neil
Victoria 🏳️⚧️
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •@tobifant
> Genai is not evil per se
Only if you're going to ignore how it's made, and by who it's pushed.
Leti Uchiha
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •Leti Uchiha
Als Antwort auf Leti Uchiha • • •vksxypants
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •so many apps on F-Droid are clearly vibe coded. I literally just downloaded a nice looking launcher, tried it out, checked the source code and it openly said it was a project in vibe coding. Shame as it looked like a nice concept but i can't trust it.
I used to be able to trust that f-droid apps were ugly, buggy, functional, and made with integrity and care. The toothpaste is clearly out of the tube now but it's a shame what we have lost.
Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf vksxypants • • •@vksxypants
> many apps on F-Droid are clearly vibe coded.
Yes, sadly so. IMHO, these apps should not be permitted in F-Droid's own repo, and that this needs addressing.
vksxypants
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Ken Milmore
Als Antwort auf vksxypants • • •hackbyte #antifa #friendica 13HB1
Als Antwort auf Ken Milmore • • •harpo_bzh
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •🥺
knirirr
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Summary: Don't love the tech, but it's been useful in some circumstances.
Ravelry
www.ravelry.comnicolaottomano
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •There's no going back, we should accept the new reality and take all reasonable precautions to keep high the quality of software, no matter the origin.
Nini
Als Antwort auf nicolaottomano • • •nicolaottomano
Als Antwort auf Nini • • •In my point of view a more fitting example is the Luddites trying to stop the industrial revolution.
AI is here and will not go away.
We should acknowledge it and try to shape these technologies to benefit us instead of trying to ban them.
@neil
trendless
Als Antwort auf nicolaottomano • • •@nicolaottomano @nini I think many opposed to how LLMs are being framed and forced down our throats would agree they're a fitting example, though not based on the colloquial usage of the term but what they actually stood for:
Nini
Als Antwort auf nicolaottomano • • •Andres
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •MokhtarStork
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •David W. Jones
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Zło To 🏴☠️
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Zło To 🏴☠️ • • •Tobias Ernst
Als Antwort auf Zło To 🏴☠️ • •Zło To 🏴☠️
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •@tobifant
> For me
Sure, for me too, but will there be a sufficient user base left so it pays to maintain it?
@neil
Noisecolor
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •As long as the debate is kept civil.
I think it has already become impossible to try to enforce a complete ban on ai and trying to do so would ultimately fail while causing carnage to the community.
Monokeros
Als Antwort auf Noisecolor • • •Noisecolor
Als Antwort auf Monokeros • • •@monokeros
You can absolutely have your own community and enjoy it whatever way members agree. You can also freely try to split and cause carnage in a community you are a member of.
It's all fine and sometimes events like these are actually a catalyst for innovation for both factions!
I think most people are not that into causing rifts like that and will go the Debian way. But again, there is plenty of space for any way of thinking and such diversity should be encouraged!
@neil
kjvee
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Ken Milmore
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •rcgj, procrastinator 1°- 4° (at times)
Als Antwort auf Ken Milmore • • •@kbm0 Debian needs coding practice labelling as well. It needs an ontology, really. "Vibe coded end-to-end" does not seem the same as, say, "used copilot for drudge work, then checked it", at least in terms of code quality.
IMO it must also be possible to (reasonably) easily completely exclude or be aware of code generated from unknown inputs by unknown means as far as it is known this has happened. Linux should label in a machine-readable way if it's not already. This's a license issue.
Ken Milmore
Als Antwort auf rcgj, procrastinator 1°- 4° (at times) • • •Felichs
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Dźwiedziu
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Oh crud… Lately I've talked to the F-Droid account on the Fediverse about “AI” anti-feature. And I was shut down due to increased workload.
…now I wonder how EU rules about labeling degenAI content will affect them and Debian.
Edit: there are hints that the Debian vote was staged: hachyderm.io/@dalias/117179333…
Cassandrich
2026-08-29 14:45:29
Tobias Ernst
Als Antwort auf Dźwiedziu • •Dźwiedziu
Als Antwort auf Tobias Ernst • • •I disappoint… :(((
Still I'll dig into this.
Edit: AI Act art. 50 § 2 and guidelines read that “AI” providers and deployers shall mark any genAI content.
Now it gets murky if F-Droid or Debian are to be considered deployers¹.
IMHO IANAL opinion F-Droid would fall out of this definition (sans their client) as a store where you choose the apps to install. But Debian might not, as installing the distro you don't have the option to choose non-slop code.
1. AI Act art. 3 (4)
»
@neil
Dźwiedziu
Als Antwort auf Dźwiedziu • • •@tobifant
«
And on the same IMHO IANAL I would think that the Linux kernel falls right into the definition of “deployer”.
Of course this might hinge on the assumption that legal definition of “text” includes code (I'd argue yes).
@neil
josch
Als Antwort auf Dźwiedziu • • •Dźwiedziu
Als Antwort auf josch • • •@josch
I think you'd be better ask the OP of this claim if you want answers.
As I have referred to this as a “hint”.
@neil
Marcin Juszkiewicz 🙃
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •I wonder how much it differ from "I do not want apps written in language A" mantra.
There were people writing shitty software. There are, and there will be.
Never mind which language they speak, which they use to write an app and how much of that app will come from AI/LLM.
The thing is: no one is forcing to use AI or AI assisted apps.
Liam Proven
Als Antwort auf Marcin Juszkiewicz 🙃 • • •Marcin Juszkiewicz 🙃
Als Antwort auf Liam Proven • • •@lproven
What I meant is there is no point in setting "no AI-assisted apps in XYZ repository".
Unless you have tens of people who will review each app on each update.
Some apps will get AI-assisted code from their authors. Or external contributors. Or will use AI-assisted library or external code. At any random moment in the app history.
You believe that each step will be marked as AI-assisted? I highly doubt.
Sure, quality of some vibe-coded apps is poor. But so is with human-coded.
Joshua Miller
Als Antwort auf Marcin Juszkiewicz 🙃 • • •@hrw @lproven Saying there's no point in declaring "no genAI code in this repository" is like saying there's no point to "no soliciting" signs cause people can still do it, or no point to including the GPL because it doesn't stop someone from pasting in non-free code
It's a policy position. Sure, someone could sneak in code that violates the policy, but that doesn't make the policy pointless.
That said, I'd prefer a slightly more relaxed position.
Liam Proven
Als Antwort auf Joshua Miller • • •@unrtst @hrw Exactly. This is not about enforcement, it's about the position, the statement. Most FOSS developers do it for the love, for fun, for learning. I don't think most of them will lie over that. Some will, sure, but you don't want that kind of person in a project anyway.
They have other projects to go pollute.
Bogdan Buduroiu
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Tobias Ernst mag das.
Stephen
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •larry fucking LOVES kde
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •I find the Gentoo rules to be of great inspiration.
"It is expressly forbidden to contribute to Gentoo any content that has been created with the assistance of Natural Language Processing artificial intelligence tools. This motion can be revisited, should a case be made for such a tool that does not pose copyright, ethical and quality concerns."
wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:C…
Project:Council/AI policy - Gentoo wiki
wiki.gentoo.orgCarlos Solís
Als Antwort auf larry fucking LOVES kde • • •Franklin Delano Stallone
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •I if people don’t want AI generated code they should have that choice. The problem is it’s impossible to police unless someone submits an obvious slop PR.
Short of using AI to try to detect AI code and hoping it has 100% despite the ethical implications l, I’m not sure how you’d do it.
Erik Jonker
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Victoria 🏳️⚧️
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Tzimisce Flesh
Als Antwort auf Victoria 🏳️⚧️ • • •🌸 lumi-nhac 🌱
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Lou.
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •the argument "we should follow debian's example" made me so fucking furious.
I sincerly hope f-droid choose a no-AI policy.
hackbyte #antifa #friendica 13HB1
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •@Neil Brown I do not think, that it is the purpose of an app repository/store, to control wether an in part or fully "vibe coded" app should be legal or not.
Srsly.... that decision is to be made by the user ..... NOT maintainers or appstores..
Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •I have had a lot of replies to this, and I am sorry that I will not be able to reply to each individually.
But I can at least try to reply thematically.
Again, my personal views.
> I like genAI / I use genAI
There's not really an argument here, but as a show of "banning genAI would annoy me, as a user of F-Droid", yes, I take that on board.
> genAI is really good
Even if true, on its own, this does not carry enough weight in my eyes to justify overlooking the problems.
> It is the output that counts, not how it is made.
Ethics matter to me.
I support codes of conduct for projects. I can't ignore the horrible views of an author to let me enjoy their writing. And so on.
To my mind, a community - humanity! - is about more than code, and I don't buy a "make the code better at all costs" argument.
Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •> It is too late to stop genAI
Why? Is there actually an argument here?
If F-Droid said "from now on, we do not accept apps created using genAI", there might be some arguments around the edges of what that means, but F-Droid could indeed draw the line.
> A ban would not stop people using genAI / people will not tell you that they are using genAI
I agree. If someone is willing to lie about their use of genAI, and submit it anyway (assuming that it was prohibited), then the F-Droid volunteers may not be able to detect it.
There is a limit to what any project can do about bad faith actors, willing to break the rules because it suits them.
Importantly, a position sends a signal. It says "this is what we want our community to be". Laws against murder do not stop murders. People still drive while intoxicated. etc.
Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •> It is not for F-Droid to determine what F-Droid hosts
F-Droid already has an inclusion policy (f-droid.org/docs/Inclusion_Pol…).
I can't see the existence of such a policy changing (nor would I want to default to "anything goes").
So F-Droid already determines the boundaries of what it is wiling to host.
And those boundaries can - do - change over time.
Note that the repository system is open, in that developers can host their own repositories or use a third party repository, and users can choose what repositories to add.
> You can just choose not to use an app made by genAI?
This is hard to reconcile with an argument that people will not disclose their use of genAI. Both cannot be true.
In any case, developers who wish to use genAI could "just choose" not to submit to F-Droid's own repositories, and run their own, and make whatever decisions they like about the governance of that repo.
Inclusion Policy | F-Droid - Free and Open Source Android App Repository
f-droid.orgNeil Brown
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •I have tried to cover the main points here, and my apologies for what I have missed. I have also tried to be brief.
I try to stick to "more than three toots should be a blogposts", and I have failed here. Sorry. Perhaps I will collate them as a blogpost too.
Again, my views. Not those of F-Droid. I am just one voice here. etc.
Ken Milmore
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •No Fate: Butlerian Jihad Now
Als Antwort auf Ken Milmore • • •@kbm0
> Although purism is well meant
I don't think its about purism. I hope you have followed the (negative) impact of AI on FOSS community and projects recently, but I FEAR that LLM is directly going to smother projects faster than it's providing a boost to anything.
Ken Milmore
Als Antwort auf No Fate: Butlerian Jihad Now • • •The easiest way to avoid this is to build your dependency stack entirely on software from 2021 or before. But security patching becomes a big chore.
tmw 🌈
Als Antwort auf Ken Milmore • • •@kbm0 what is the argument supposed to be? "we can't control everything so we can't control anything"? systems can be imperfect without wholeheartedly embracing their imperfections. that's just life. we do what we can. but i suppose not everyone thinks of it that way.
there are already dozens of projects with anti-ai policies...hopefully it won't "kill FLOSS". here's some: codeberg.org/brib/slopfree-sof…
if minimum viable non-slop alternatives to given libraries exist, they ought to be preferred; if a library is known to be slop in advance, it would be better not to use it if possible. i don't see the need to throw up our hands and give up because of dependencies
slopfree-software-index
Codeberg.orgJaimie's Erotica
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •I understand the argument that you can't avoid it completely (especially if, like me, you use an android phone and a Windows PC) but I'll be doing my best for as long as I can.
Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Jaimie's Erotica • • •@Jaimieserotica
I have always said how wise you are.
Jaimie's Erotica
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Anyway, I have to go now, as we are going to visit friends who have made us some lovely dinner. It takes somewhat longer to beautify oneself in a household of two women and only one bathroom sink/mirror.
I'm saving to get the bathroom done...
Have a lovely evening ❤️
Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Jaimie's Erotica • • •@Jaimieserotica
Enjoy your evening. I am sure that you will look fabulous.
Given sufficient time.
Jaimie's Erotica
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf Jaimie's Erotica • • •@Jaimieserotica
Bring. It. On.
Now shoo, and enjoy your evening :)
Megalomaniac
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Neil Brown
Als Antwort auf David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*) • • •@david_chisnall
Yes, in the thread I wrote:
> Note that the repository system is open, in that developers can host their own repositories or use a third party repository, and users can choose what repositories to add.
David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •No Fate: Butlerian Jihad Now
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •> > It is not for F-Droid to determine what F-Droid hosts
I am bit surprised by this argument and its ingenuity.
Of course EVERY project which is brokering things or hosting things can and must determine what it hosts. For example (taken from a different domain) hosting a rendering of mad old uncle Adolf's "Mein Kampf" will decidedly get a project into trouble in some jurisdictions, so there has to be a determination of the unavoidable limitations one wants to accept and which not. Either not offering the service everywhere or not hosting everything.
Furthermore F-Droid takes a stand on undesired types of content already with the section "Features you might not like".
Russell (Robin) Phillips
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •re the first point: it is absolutely for F-Droid to decide what they host. They can set whatever limits they wish. They could choose to exclusively host trandphobic and homophobic software if they wanted to.
Everyone else is free to choose to not use F-Droid if they strongly oppose F-Droid's choices.
Sadie
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •samir, followed by two exclamamation marks
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Feels to me that if your arguments can also be used to justify slavery, you need to consider your position more carefully.
Keep on doing the good work. 💜
Rí Rua
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Else, Someone
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •> Yes, I am an F-Droid board member
Whoa, I had no idea! Thank you!
Else, Someone
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •Ekaitz Zarraga 👹 (@ekaitz_zarraga@mastodon.social)
Ekaitz Zarraga 👹 (Mastodon)Else, Someone
Als Antwort auf Else, Someone • • •Else, Someone
Als Antwort auf Else, Someone • • •The other trap is obsessing over disclosure: don't!
It's 100% besides the point whether you can reliably tell if something is generated or human written. The volunteers' subjective and personal judgement is precisely why I want F-Droid and not Accrescent! The volunteer decides if a project and its processes appear safe and sane enough, or if it "looks like slop to me". "Looks like slop" is the bar.
dandels
Als Antwort auf Neil Brown • • •